10 August 2009

A Public Debate with Joe Romm?

Richard Brenne, who I met a few times when he was in Boulder where he organized a number of fora to discuss climate and environmental issues, has offered to moderate a debate between Joe Romm and me on the topic of climate policy. Given Romm's continuing obsession with me and my views, I think that this is a fine idea, and have told Brenne as much. Romm has responded to Brenne saying that he doesn't "see any upside for me, CP [Climate Progress, his blog], or future generations in debating Pielke."

It is easier for Joe to "debate" me by slinging insults on his blog multiple times a week and then not allowing me to respond. A moderated debate would cut to substance pretty quickly, which I much prefer over Joe's recent efforts. Joe doesn't want to travel, so let me say that I'd be more than happy to do a moderated debate online or I am happy to travel to Joe, so that should not be an issue. Here is Richard's email to Joe asking him to consider a debate, offering very generous terms:
Joe -

Thanks for your typically eloquent reply about my suggesting a debate between you and Roger Pielke, Jr, who is a obviously a big fan of ClimateProgress because he immediately e-mailed me saying he’d gladly accept an invitation to have a public discussion that I would moderate.

While I might disagree with Roger in certain key areas, I know him personally and have always found him to be reasonable and civil in discussions. I can’t see him trying to shout you down, interrupting or using other inappropriate and unintelligent tactics.

We could host the event in Boulder and I know many NOAA, NCAR, CIRES, INSTAAR, NSIDC and NREL directors and senior scientists who would attend and support your positions. In fact my hope is that you and the process could recruit more of them to become uncharacteristically blunt scientists, something I’ve been working on helping them become for many years.

Although my career has completely shifted to helping communicate climate change and related issues, I’ve been a working, produced and award-winning screenwriter and I know what audiences like, and one of those things is (appropriate) conflict, not the agreement which unfortunately often puts audiences to sleep. I’m sure you’ve noticed how your postings involving conflicts with Roger can get hundreds of comments.

We could webcast on your website, create links for your audience, and help you get your word out however you’d like.

Of course I’d need to give Roger the same opportunities to make his points. While I’m still trying to understand your areas of conflict, in many other areas of discussion I’ve seen Roger think more creatively, completely and with more full-cost accounting than I usually see.

And as the physical science becomes better established, I think we need to hear increasingly from social scientists (Pielke, Jr. is a social scientist, his father is a physical climate scientist) also.

I think the results would be high-energy, insightful, illuminating, entertaining, and yes, funny. I’d insist the conversation be as engaging as possible without any of us resorting to name-calling, figure-pointing, personal insults or profanity.

Any number of world-class discussants could be involved in break-out sessions and we could have a truly world-class event that moves the conversation forward, as you’ve done so eloquently in your response and postings.

In addition to a Boulder event, we’d be happy to also consider D.C., New York, L.A. (where I’m planning events at Cal Tech and UCLA), etc.

I think if you did this once you’d like it – and grow your already considerable audience, which is something I’d like to see happen also.

Thanks Joe,

Richard Brenne
So yes, lets have a debate, which can only add value to the public conversation on climate change and policies now being considered. If instead of a moderated public debate, Joe wants to hide behind his heavily censored blog and lob insults, that should tell us something also.

20 comments:

Not Whitey Bulger said...

"...he doesn't "see any upside for me, CP [Climate Progress, his blog], or future generations in debating Pielke.""

You can't argue with #1 and #2.

Fred said...

must have learned his debating rules from the other great serial non-debater . . Al Gore

Dan C said...

Great!

Brian said...

With all the "consensus" and "consistent with" findings in the climate change world supporting him, it's very revealing that Romm sees in debate no result better than a draw.

Sylvain said...

Should anyone be surprised that he refused. He knows that he doesn't have substance.

Son no there is no upside for him or his blog.

As for future generations, I don't think they would care about such debate since it is not where policy are decided.

At least Joe's sense of preservation is strong enough to prevent him to enter into a losing situation.

SBVOR said...

Dr. Pielke,

Let’s not put the cart before the horse.

Given the latest data on the Arctic Sea Ice Extent, perhaps you should first debate me -- here, on your blog -- as to whether it is advisable to spend one thin tax payer dime in an effort to make the current CO2 famine even more severe.

What say?

Are you up to the challenge? You said you were.

I would so love to the genuine honor of being the one who persuaded you to rethink your most fundamental assumptions.

Respectfully,
SBVOR

SBVOR said...

Argghh!
"I would so love to the genuine honor" should have read "I would so love the genuine honor"
My bad!

marcmorano said...

Romm debated me last March. To watch video and read about Romm's debating style see here:

http://www.climatedepot.com/a/39/Morano-debates-former-Clinton-Official-Romm

Thanks,
Marc Morano

SBVOR said...

OMG! Marc,

I had never before paid much attention to Joe Romm or his blog.

But, Romm’s opening salvo -- beginning at 6:20 into the first of your cited videos -- proves him, in my estimation, to be just a complete raving lunatic on the outer most fringes among lunatics.

Quoting Romm:

“I don’t think there is any question that there is an overwhelming scientific understanding that on our current emissions path, we are gonna warm the United States 10 to 15 degrees Fahrenheit by the end of the century and sea level rise will be 5 feet or higher and a third of the planet will be desert.”

That is just off the charts loony tunes!

Even the purely political IPCC -- using laughably incomplete, designed to alarm -- computer models only projects warming to range somewhere between 1.1 and 6.4 C (4-11.5 F) and a sea level rise of 18-59 cm (7-23 inches). See Table 3.1 on page 45 of this (rather large, slow to load) IPCC link.

More sober peer reviewed science projects the total human impact -- after we double pre-industrial levels of CO2 (presumably by 2100) -- to be 1.1 C (4 F). If one accepts the IPCC assertion that AGW has already resulted in 0.7 C of warming, that leaves only 0.4 C (0.7 F) of warming between now and 2100. Other climatologists project considerably less warming than that.

So, what “overwhelming scientific understanding” is Romm referring to? The world according to James Hansen and Al Gore?

TokyoTom said...

SBVOR, Roger likes to welcome "skeptic" readers without forcing them to confront their own religious-like data cherry-picking.

For an example of these, let`s look at northern hemisphere sea ice cover and at CO2 levels. You refer to a chart of the "latest" sea ice data, which conspicously fails to include any context before 2002. But the National Snow and Ice Date Center says prominently that:

- "According to scientific measurements, Arctic sea ice has declined dramatically over at least the past thirty years, with the most extreme decline seen in the summer melt season", and provides charts showing how the current melt cycle falls by more than two standard deviations below the 1979-2000 average; and

- "The long-term trend indicates a decline of 6.1% per decade in July ice extent since 1979, relative to the 1979 to 2000 average".

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

Further, your chart on "the current CO2 famine" refers to periods of high CO" levels over 500 milion years ago, while giving little prominence to the fact that mankind evolved (and the flora and fauna that now populate the Earth are adapted) during a 20+ million yr period where levels were generally far less than 1000 ppm.

This leaves the inquiring mind to wonder - why are you in favor of terraforming the Earth to it better suits dinosaurs and trilobites?

SBVOR said...

Readers,

For those who wish to read my observations absent what I believe to be deliberate, lawyer-like distortions from TokyoTom:

Arctic Sea Ice Extent Now Larger Than 2008

Atmospheric CO2 over Time

In reading my observations, I believe the distortions become obvious.

SBVOR said...

TokyoTom,

You keep making bogus assertions suggesting humans are not well adapted for higher levels of CO2.

Click here (as a starting point) and read up on CO2 toxicity.

Notice that the discussion begins with:

“1%, as can occur in a crowded auditorium with poor ventilation, can cause drowsiness”

1% is 10,000 ppm -- about 25 times higher than current atmospheric levels -- and about 25% higher than the median estimate of the highest CO2 levels we are aware of (some 520 million years ago).

Note, as well -- at the bottom of my post -- the correlation between the highest CO2 levels we are aware of and the single biggest explosion in biodiversity the planet has ever seen.

Additionally, the overwhelming majority of the flora and fauna now populating the earth evolved LONG before humans did. Considering that CO2 has naturally ranged from about 8,000 ppm to about 200 ppm, it is really hard to imagine that if a catastrophe would transpire if human activity elevated atmospheric CO2 to 600 ppm (roughly double the pre-industrial levels).

If you want to scare people over CO2, your evolution argument is a really poor angle of attack.

SBVOR said...

Arrggh!
"that if a catastrophe would transpire" should have read "that a catastrophe would transpire" -- my bad!

TokyoTom said...

SBVOR, maybe you should stop providing investment advice and become a courtroom lawyer or a politician, since you do a great job of failing to respond to points raised and with diverting with strawmen and red herrings.

As I noted in your first post,

(1) your comparison of 2009 ice melt only goes back to 2002 and ignores that this is more than two standard deviations below the 1979-2000 average, and

(2) your comparison of paleo CO2 levels (up to 600 million yrs ago) with the present ignores that present life forms, including man, are adapted to CURRENT (recent few million years) CO2 levels.

You continue to dodge (1) and on (2) you offer your opinion that a large change in CO2 levels is no big deal, because life-was-very-diverse-hunders-of-millions-of-years-ago. Well, (2) may very well be correct, but it tells us nothing of the costs to man and nature is it is now when we suddenly try to recreate the conditions of the early Paelozoic

"the overwhelming majority of the flora and fauna now populating the earth evolved LONG before humans did."

What, did evolution of all other life END long before humans evolved?

"Considering that CO2 has naturally ranged from about 8,000 ppm to about 200 ppm, it is really hard to imagine that if a catastrophe would transpire if human activity elevated atmospheric CO2 to 600 ppm (roughly double the pre-industrial levels)."

Ever note those funny little events in the paleo record where many life forms when suddenly extinct? Did these events result from gradual changes in environmental paraments, or fairly sudden ones?

"If you want to scare people over CO2"

But I don`t want to scare people over CO2, but merely to point out that your arguments continually omit very relevant facts and nuances.

SBVOR said...

TokyoTom,

Prior to the industrial age, CO2 comprised 0.03% of the atmosphere. Today it is coming perilously close to 0.04% of the atmosphere. By 2100, is might reach the really scary level of 0.06%. And, you expect me to worry about this? Seriously?

I have a video clip for you.

ljohnson said...

Apparently Joe was berating a poster for not reading the IPCC reports, nor being familar with the IPCC reports. Joe banned the poster.

Apparently Joe didn't recognize the poster as an IPCC expert reviewer (Richard Courtney).

Apparently Joe didn't like having this pointed out to him, as my posting was never published.

The Alberta Ranter said...

good for pielke. I barely know of him, and I just gained alot of respect for him with this move of wanting to call out Romm to where he can't run away and censor.

just that move alone shows that Romm is nothing more than a mouthy little coward, and would get pummeled by Pielke in a debate.

Hansii said...

Good Lord I'd LOVE to see a debate between Romm and Dr Peilke.
In fact, I think a "team" approach would be best. Romm, Schneider, Schmidt, and Connolley should go up against the Peilke's (Father and Son) McIntyre, and Oh... Jo Nova or Jennifer Marohasy. That would be just GREAT!

QNUbdIgqqpeMsNo_oQfkTkJi4H9a2gx8TZDJSA-- said...

Hansii is looking forward to a tag team wrestling match, not a debate. Joe Romm does that to people, but he brand of zealotry is not worth confronting on that level.

QNUbdIgqqpeMsNo_oQfkTkJi4H9a2gx8TZDJSA-- said...

You guys are gettiing too combative, maybe. Hansii is envisioning a tag team wrestlng match, not a debate.
Joe Romm does that to people, with his insistence that "nonscientists" have no standing to opine, and economists are fascist pigs.

My advice is to not bait him. With his fundraising base, he will be impervious to reason

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