03 March 2010

Engage Your Opponents or Just Call them "Nutters"?

There is an interesting set of quotes in the New York Times today from blogger and NASA climate scientist Gavin Schmidt. Schmidt is the principal behind Real Climate, a blog self-described as:
RealClimate is a commentary site on climate science by working climate scientists for the interested public and journalists.
In the Times, Schmidt has the following odd statement:

But some scientists said that responding to climate change skeptics was a fool’s errand.

“Climate scientists are paid to do climate science,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a senior climatologist with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration’s Goddard Institute of Space Studies. “Their job is not persuading the public.”

The statement is odd because Schmidt and his climate scientist colleagues have devoted much of the effort on their blog to countering "skeptics" and persuading the public and the media that their views are the authoritative ones. Was Schmidt misquoted? Is Real Climate shutting down?

If that statement was curious, the following quote attributed to Schmidt indicates how some scientists just do not get what has happened in the past few months (emphasis added):

“There have always been people accusing us of being fraudulent criminals, of the I.P.C.C. being corrupt,” Dr. Schmidt said. “What is new is this paranoia combined with a spell of cold weather in the United States and the ‘climategate’ release. It’s a perfect storm that has allowed the nutters to control the agenda.”

The answer is simple, he said.

“Good science,” he said, “is the best revenge.”

Calling people with whom you disagree "nutters" is a good example of the excessive arrogance in the scientific community, a problem that does not look to be going away anytime soon. The notion that "good science" will wreak revenge on the "nutters" who "control the agenda" suggests that we can expect even more politicized science, that is to say, political battles waged through science.

Fortunately, there are some folks who do get it. For instance, Sheila Jasanoff of Harvard, who studies science in society, explains in a blog post addenda to the print story:
“[Rebuilding trust is] not just a function of information, but an ongoing relationship with the public, a willingness to show why you should be believed,”
Georgia Tech's Judy Curry is a climate scientist who gets it:

In her view, it is only by directly engaging critics, on the Internet and elsewhere, that scientists can begin to rebuild the faith that Professor Jasanoff says has been breached.

“A lot of the issue with the bloggers is they feel they get disrespected by mainstream climate community and some have something to offer technically,” Professor Curry said in an interview. “But they just get lumped into denier, oil-funded cranks.”

She urged climate scientists to post relevant papers on the Internet and then hang around for a few hours taking questions from critics or contrarians.

“It would go a long way to educating the public and giving our critics the respect they want,” she said.

Engagement, not name calling is the best way forward.

25 comments:

Frontiers of Faith and Science said...

Schmidt is going through some of the necessarry steps of mourning and loss.

itisi69 said...

Schmidt is really winning hearts and minds.

This nutter quote will hunt him till the end of days. From the ivory tower it's very difficult to see people down on earth.

scienceofdoom said...

The wonderful folk at realclimate.org don't understand how people learn. Or how people come to reflect on whether their own views are correct.

Realclimate.org helps confirm the views of "the believers" and helps confirm the views of "the skeptics".

Perhaps some people who care about climate science might persuade the current main bloggers to step to one side and have them in a technical advisory capacity. And the new incumbents can try the "Judith Curry approach".

Or failing that, perhaps a group of climate scientists can start a new blog with the "Judith Curry approach".

A radical experiment in seeing whether answering questions without insulting or demeaning people is more successful in winning them over.

Andrew said...

"Is Real Climate shutting down?"

You could be plagiarizing Anthony Watts ;)

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/03/03/willis-makes-the-nyt-gavin-to-stop-persuading-the-public/

Roger Pielke, Jr. said...

-4-Andrew

Careful, there are a few bloggers who will add that suggestion to my list of denier credentials;-)

AMac said...

Check out recent posts at Lucia's Blackboard for encouraging instances of curious, data-driven people from "both sides" engaging issues related to the calculation of regional and global temperature anomalies.

Name-calling ("nutters") isn't the only way. There are better choices.

willard said...

Yes, there are certainly better choices, like a well-chosen image to accompany a blog post.

Marlowe Johnson said...

Roger,

Is this blog part of your professional (i.e. paid by your employer) duties?

I'm entirely sympathetic to Gavin and the rest of the folks at realclimate for the effort that they put into their blog. I also understand, and to a certain degree, sympathize with yours (and others) frustration about how their comment policy (a comment of mine today didn't pass muster apparently). BUT I think that their overall function is a useful one; namely to provide more information/context about the science of climate change than is normally provided in press releases and mainstream media.

Why is this a bad thing? As a relatively neutral observer I find your animosity towards Gavin as bizarre as Romm's animosity towards you.

I get that you think that they're being 'stealth' advocates using science as a means towards a desired policy goal, but IMO it still begs the question: if you see people/media/bloggers MISREPRESENTING facts that you are very familiar with (and thus able to make the misrepresention claim with confidence) then what else are you supposed to do as a scientist/academic?

Isn't this precisely what you are doing with regards to your expertise about disasters/hurricanes etc...?

This is perhaps a roundabout way of asking what particular sin/strategic misstep Gavin et al are guilty of as compared to your own activities. From where I stand, I see essentially the same thing; namely, defending 'facts' as you understand them...

Roger Pielke, Jr. said...

-8-Marlowe

Thanks for the questions. These are exactly the sort of questions that I like to see on this blog. A few replies ...

I am not sure why this post qualifies as "animosity" towards Gavin. I see a tendency in blog debates to equate the normal give-and-take of academic criticism, which can be tough but should be fair, with ad homenim personal attacks. This was not an ad hom attack or even harsh in tone. Please indicate with specifics if you think otherwise.

Equating Romm's behavior toward me with this fairly gentle post is a good example of that sort of false equivalency.

For the past 15 years or so I've studied the behavior of scientists in policy and politics. This often means looking at the behavior of specific scientists in specific contexts. We are accustomed to looking at, for instance, how sports figures or politicians behave in public settings, and then discussing/critiquing those behaviors ... scientists not so much. So the mere act of discussing scientists behaviors rubs certain folks the wrong way. Sorry.

Over that time I have argued that "stealth issue advocacy" -- the hiding of political arguments behind science -- has great potential to hurt the integrity of science, meaning its societal standing, its legitimacy and the trust that people place in it.

When Gavin claims, that he often does, that he advocates no policies, that all he cares about is science, I have no qualms about showing that this is not the case. It is not personal against Gavin, I'm sure he is a swell guy. But politicizing science through stealth issue advocacy is harmful to the public view of science, and it is harmful to climate policy, as I have argued in this post, and elsewhere.

Being aware of this, I try to go to great lengths to explain the policy significance of my work on hurricanes, energy policy, science and politics. It is not just about facts, but the facts in a specific political context.

This is long enough as a response, but if you have further questions or want more elaboration, just ask. I'll warn you though that before long I'll start pointing to academic papers and books ;-)

markbahner said...

"BUT I think that their overall function is a useful one; namely to provide more information/context about the science of climate change than is normally provided in press releases and mainstream media."

The science of climate change doesn't need the "favors" Real Climate performs.

Real Climate's policy of simply refusing to post any questions/comments they find uncomfortable to answer/respond to is an absolute disgrace. It is profoundly dishonest. No decent scientists (i.e., scientists interested in the truth) would behave in such a manner.

markbahner said...

"BUT I think that their overall function is a useful one; namely to provide more information/context about the science of climate change than is normally provided in press releases and mainstream media."

Climate science does not need the "favors" that Real Climate performs. Real Climate's policy of routinely refusing to post questions/comments that it finds difficult to answer/respond to is an absolute disgrace. It is profoundly dishonest.

"This is perhaps a roundabout way of asking what particular sin/strategic misstep Gavin et al are guilty of as compared to your own activities. From where I stand, I see essentially the same thing; namely, defending 'facts' as you understand them..."

You have already identified a fundamental difference between Gavin et al. and Roger. They routinely refuse to post comments (pretending that the comments never existed). That is fundamentally dishonest. (To my knowledge) Roger does not do that.

willard said...

Perhaps Gaving Schmidt was calling nutters people that were more than disagreeing with him.

It is also quite possible to say that there is not much difference between saying "such and such would be a good example of the excessive arrogance in the scientific community" and "Gavin Schmidt is arrogant by speaking of nutters".

It might also be tough to construe an ad hominem if we do not know the persons targeted by Gavin Schmidt's expression. It might be even tougher to talk of arrogance and not get personal.

heyworth said...

RealClimate doesn't seem to me to be there to convince the public at all. Its main purpose seems to be to reinforce the beliefs of the faithful. It's apologetics, not evangelism.

heyworth said...

"Is Real Climate shutting down?"

They said they were, once:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/04/farewell-to-our-readers/

Tom Matkin said...

"Schmidt is the principle behind Real Climate,"

Was this use of principle instead of principal a delicious Freudian slip or an intentional pun?

jae said...

"She urged climate scientists to post relevant papers on the Internet and then hang around for a few hours taking questions from critics or contrarians."

Really. A "few hours," eh? How thoughtful and scientifically meaningful. Am I wrong in reading this as "throw those denialists a bone?"

Here's a challenge to the "Climate Science Community." Put one or two of the best damn peer-reviewed scientific papers they have that demonstrates some "alarming" AGW problem out there in blogland and let the "denialists," "skeptics," whatever have their say. Keep it civil, BUT, no censorship. Let's see if there is one shred of evidence of AGW. RC could do this, but for the horrible censorship that exists there. My bias is that there is very little "science" out there that supports all the alarmism, which explains completely why: (1) there is so much censorship on the "believers" blogs; (2) reluctance of the scientists to engage in serious debate online; (3) the collapse of the Copenhoppen talks and the decreasing number of people that have any respect for "climate science" (see all the polls).

copner said...

> RealClimate doesn't seem to me to be there to convince the public at all. Its main purpose seems to be to reinforce the beliefs of the faithful. It's apologetics, not evangelism.

Exactly. That attitude is in many of the posts, it's worse in the comments, and it's worst in the moderator replies inserted into comments.

Even the mildest of questions, and tangental of criticisms - many of which could be answered calmly and politely - get removed, condescended to, or shouted down with the modern version of "burn the witch".

If you're one of the truly faithful already, perhaps it reinforces your faith, and deters the waverers from questioning any of the established dogmas.

But if you have any questions (let alone doubts), then you'll probably start looking elsewhere for information.

If I had a simple question about AGW (and I have many), I simply wouldn't bother asking at realclimate, because simply asking a question will get me accused of heresy.

Kooiti MASUDA said...

"Calling people with whom you disagree 'nutters' " is too unkind an interpretation of what Gavin said. See his post on 16 February http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2010/02/whatevergate/ , below the mention of "Overton window". He distinguishes " 'global warming is a hoax' proponents" from "sceptics" of "more sensible kind". I think he had "GW hoaxers" and the like in mind when he said "nutters".

AMac said...

Kooiti MASUDA #18 --

In the paper edition, the front-pager in yesterday's NYT read just the way it is reprinted in this post.

If Dr. Schmidt believes that he was misquoted or taken out of context in reporter John Broder's generally Consensus-sympathetic article, he should certainly say so. Nothing to that effect in this morning's RealClimate post, that I see.

Kooiti MASUDA said...

In the context of the New York Times article, Gavin Schmidt talks about "people accusing us of being fraudulent criminals", and it is likely that "nutters" refers to this category of people. The former does not include those people who think that scientists do their work in good faith but that their results are wrong.

Mark said...

"Calling people with whom you disagree "nutters" is a good example of the excessive arrogance in the scientific community"

Creating strawman arguments like this is an example of dishonesty. As others have noted, and is really quite obvious, Gavin was not referring simply to everyone he disagrees with. That should be clear. Eschenbach (note Broder article) might fall into this "nutter" category. Eschenbach's comments demonstrate something much worse than "excessive arrogance".

Another misrepresentation involves the following quote, mined from:

“Climate scientists are paid to do climate science,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a senior climatologist with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration’s Goddard Institute of Space Studies. “Their job is not persuading the public.”

in which you left out Gavin's response on his blog, which provides context:

"Hey Gavin, if your job is to do ‘climate science’ and not ‘persuade’ the public, why do you spend so much time and effort with RealClimate.Org?"

[Response: Because I think it is worthwhile even if I don't get paid for it. - gavin]

AMac said...

Kooiti MASUDA #20 --

Most people see themselves as operating in "good faith" most of the time. Unfortunately, this concept can sometimes be very elastic. This week's Parliamentary hearings provide a relevant example. I have no doubt that Dr. Jones acted in "good faith", but it is difficult or impossible to reconcile certain actions with proper conduct, or perhaps even with properly-motivated conduct.

The impression I get from Dr. Schmidt at RealClimate is that of an attitude of "with us or against us", with little patience for distinguishing complaints about the behavior of his allies from complaints about their character. This NYT quip is consistent with that posture.

However, I don't follow Dr. Schmidt's pronouncements with great attention. I admit I might be making too quick of a conclusion.

TSL said...

As an earth scientist, not a climate specialist, I went to RealClimate a few times looking for more technical information than is available in the general or political press. I didn't get my question answered, but I did learn that anybody who doesn't know and accept the (non) answer is either stupid or in the pay of Exxon. It didn't take me long to dismiss it as sciency-sounding spin.

Kooiti MASUDA said...

As a description of RealClimate, I basically agree with heyworth saying "It's apologetics, not evangelism", though I do not use such an expression myself.
It is a useful source of information for those who think that the "mainstream" climate science is generally true, but that they do not know enough to explain it.
It is not designed as a forum of debate between adversary opinions. It is not designed as a question box either.
The possibility for a person who asks question to get good response is just haphazard. Not ideal, but not very bad.

cupster33 said...

Fact is using cute little names disproves nothing after all it's just a name used by some that fear your point of view or they can't refute it.

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